Session 11: Transcript

Session 11: Transcript

Session Topic: Anti-racism for Allies Q&A Session - Co-host Bernie Cox

Carrie: Hello, everyone, welcome to our anti-racism for allies. I am going to welcome on our guests, Bernie Cox. He's going to introduce himself in just a minute. But I just want to say thank you, everyone, for coming today. We are doing our weekly Ally Q&A session, and we're excited that you're here. We have some really great questions to go over today. Thank you, everyone, for coming today. We are going to go ahead and get started. We're just going to go over a couple of just kind of housekeeping and let everyone know kind of why we're here and what to expect today. So I'm going to share my screen actually for just a minute. And so today's flow, we are going to set our collective tone. We're going to offer some definitions to get us on the same page, and then we're going to jump right into questions. And we, of course, get questions submitted ahead of time. But you are also able to submit questions anonymously or as yourself in the chat or in the Q&A. And so as we're going through tonight, if something sparks in your mind, if you have an additional question, feel free to throw it down there in the Q&A and we will take a peek throughout and bring that into the dialog as well. So without further ado, I would love for you, Bernie, to introduce yourself to our Zoom watchers today.

Bernie: Sure. Thanks, Carrie. My name is Bernie Cox. My pronouns, are they, them? I am a writer and an educator occasionally. And I write science fiction and fantasy.

Carrie: Yeah, yeah, Bernie is an amazing thinker, he's also very, very humble, so he might say different things, but he has an incredible mind and he is very worldly as well. And so I'm excited to just hear everything that he has to say about our questions tonight. So let's go ahead and jump right in.

Bernie: You good, Bernie? I just want to say you are also very brilliant. I am not. But, thank you.

Carrie: You're welcome. I will accept that. So the first thing we want to do tonight is really just create a positive space. One of the things about the inclusion first project is that we are taking all kinds of questions from our anti-racism allies. And by doing that, we want to create a safe space that is judgment free. So here we are tonight. No shame, no blame. All questions are welcome that are offered in the spirit of learning and then figuring out how to make a positive impact in this movement. As we are going through this session today, you'll see Bernie and I modeling like how to have conversations around race. And Bernie, lucky to call him a friend, but we have different perspectives on things and we might not agree, but we're going to go ahead and have this, like, respectful conversation where we both listen and share our points of view.

Carrie: And so you'll be able to hopefully pick up some different tips and tricks that you can take with you back into your life, whether that be at home, at work or anywhere in between. So one thing as we're talking about race and really anything that we're speaking for ourselves only, I am not speaking for all black women. Bernie is not speaking for all people from Chicago who live there currently. We're just representing ourselves at this time. And so when we're in conversations out there in the world, taking the person that you are speaking to, just as they are in that moment, dropping all assumptions, dropping all stereotypes and really tuning in and listening to what they're saying so that we can react to what is being heard versus what we might be thinking or what we might have heard somewhere else or some other experience. We also don't know everything. Bernie and I, we know, we're looking at all the great, wonderful questions that are submitted. And some of them are like, OK, well, I know something about that, but I'm going to need to do research on some other things. And then other times, like, I don't know what that is at all because it's not possible for anyone to know everything about any topic. And so we are here learning and growing just as you are. And so we're just going to allow that space for everyone to do that. Bernie, do you want to take the last three and just kind of give us your perspective on those?

Bernie: Sure, yeah, this is a lifelong journey or lived experience, everyone is at a different point. We're not all we are all on the same page all the time. Your role in driving change will be unique. It's going to be based from your perspective. And the influences are around you. The process and impact will be different to everyone. And that is very true. You can see how people take certain changes in different ways and also how the process and impacts you personally is going to look different to you than it looks to the person who's sitting next to you.

Carrie: Absolutely. So we really feel like these, not even ground rules, it's just how we're creating a positive space that we can all support each other in learning and then being able to have these kinds of conversations. So we are going to start off and just get some level setting done. So this webinar and this series is called Anti-Racism for Allies. So we're going to talk a little bit about what anti-racism is, what antiracism is, and then we're going to talk about Ally ship, and then we're going to jump right into the questions and actually have a lot of several really interesting questions around Ally Ship. And so we're going to be taking things to the next level in this conversation. So we're excited to do that. So let's start off with Antiracist.

Carrie: One thing before we start, I did tell you that you can put your questions in the Q&A, in the chat, and then feel free to have conversations and dialog in the chat as you feel comfortable, because this is what this is all about, this conversation.

Carrie: OK, so antiracist and we're kind of distinguishing between antiracist as a person and anti-racism as the work and the systems that we are trying to create. So anti-racism and this is from Ibram Kendi’s book, How to be an Anti-racist. Anti-racist is someone who is supporting an anti-racist policy through their actions or expressing anti-racist ideas. This includes the expression or ideas that racial groups are equal and do not need developing and supporting policies that reduce racial inequity. So we got really official on this definition. But basically, it's this idea that all races are equal. And I'm not talking about like we're equal in the systems because we're absolutely not.

Carrie: But at the core, no race is better than any other race and no race is worse than any other race. We are all we are all here. And an anti-racist is someone that is really just supporting both these ideas in this policy through through their actions.

Carrie: So antiracist ideas, any idea that suggests that racial groups are equal in all of their apparent differences and that there is nothing wrong with any racial group. And so you'll hear a little bit about these anti-racist ideas. What does that mean? It's just exactly this. It's super simple, but it's super core to this conversation and super core to this movement. Bernie, if there's anything that you want to add, as I'm going through in just kind of level setting, feel free to feel free to jump in. 

Carrie: OK, so anti-racism, the work of actively opposing racism by advocating for changes in political, economic and social life. And this is a very short, very distinct but very like action packed definition because it's the work of actively opposing racism. It's not just about saying like, oh, yeah, I totally think that this is a great thing and we everyone needs to be equal. It's not about your words. It's about the idea of actively opposing racism and changes in our political or economic and our social life. So in the government, in how money moves through our country and how we have access and who and who doesn't have access. And then in our social life, which is really everything, racism is in all of the systems that exist around us. And it's our job to acknowledge and understand that and then start to be able to identify what it looks like and then start to disrupt that and then start to design it out. So this is why this is a lifetime journey, because it's in everything. And right now we're in this awakening where people are starting to acknowledge that again, more people are starting to acknowledge that. And so this is the work that we're doing.

I love this quote by the author of Let's Talk About Race, so she says, Anti-Racism is the commitment to fight racism wherever you find it, including in yourself, and it's the only way forward. Including in yourself. Our country and world is designed in a way that supports racism, which means that racism is actually inside of all of us. And we don't even know it some of the times and other times we might. And so our job is to find it, especially inside of ourselves, because I feel like this movement starts with the inner work of understanding who you are, what your privileges and powers are, and how you can use that for good, how you can use that to uplift the oppressed, how you can use that to bring voices to the table that haven't been there before or that have been silenced. But a lot of this is about you and understanding where you are, where you fit into this movement and then educating yourself so that you can take that informed, impactful action.

Carrie: Do you have anything you want to add around antiracism?We went through that really fast. We could talk about this stuff for like weeks and weeks. So we're just hitting it at a high level. And we're going to jump in questions after that. 

Bernie: As you point out, it's a simple concept, but it's a complex idea right now to execute in the US and globally and other places, too, because it'll have you talking about colonialism and in other parts of the world. We'll have to talk about our own colonialism. You're talking about what suburb you've chosen to live in comes into play. I often referred to the suburb I'm in as White Landia, but it is primarily a predominantly white suburb. And why that exists, why that is and when you start drilling down and in the idea of how can you be anti-racist, what does that entail? You have to start looking at histories. You have to start looking at your own personal actions. While it's a simple idea, it carries a lot. 

Carrie: Mm hmm. Yes. It's very complex and it's very multifaceted. And so that's why we want to start by just talking about questions that people have so that we can start to understand where we are all in those layers and how to bring us to the same place where we can move forward and, you know, drive real change. So, Bernie, you want to talk a little bit about allyship?  

Bernie: Sure, allyship is an active, consistent and challenging practice of unlearning and reevaluating in which a person of privilege seeks to work in solidarity with a marginalized group. Allyship looks different to everyone who's engaging with this term. It looks different to someone who's white. It looks different to someone who's been harmed by white supremacy and racist policies. It looks different to different political groups. So when we talk about it, well, there's some good questions that have been brought up. We'll drill down into some of these ideas and for me and I'll reframe this again. But, allyship isn't a title. You don't become an ally. Ally is, as it says here, an active, consistent and challenging practice of unlearning and reevaluating. I don't become an ally. I do allyship. I try and put myself in a place where I can enact allied and anti-racist ideas and policies and actions in my community. I don't wear the badge of Ally, I do the practice.

Carrie: Yeah. And I love that when we were talking about that earlier because it again it starts to in the same way that anti-racism and being anti-racist is an active thing. Being an ally is an active thing. I love what you said, it's not a badge. It's not a blackout on your Facebook. It's what you're doing. And even if what you're doing is thinking, observing, reading, those are the steps that you might take before you actually jump into an action. So it can look different depending also around what phase you're at and what part, because you don't just stand up and be an ally, it's in all of our all the different facets of our life. And so you'll find yourself, maybe if you have children, looking at how the school system could be framed in a more anti-racist way or the government or, you know, your your neighborhood group or even what you're doing in your own family. You're going to be at different phases and all of those. But this is all the active practice of being an ally and continuing to kind of learn and grow and even iterating right as we go.

Bernie: Can I tag something on?

Carrie Absolutely. 

Bernie: I'm only speaking for myself, but I've encountered this idea that someone goes out and becomes or identifies or is an ally without looking at who's doing the work in their community already. And so being an ally is figuring out who's doing the work, how that work is being done and how you can help that person organization as opposed to centering yourself. Because that's not that's not what it's about. It's not getting the cookies. It is making sure that you're helping other people do the work if it's being done right now in your local community.

Carrie: Yeah, that's definitely a really good point, because with the resurgence of Black Lives Matter and really just the civil rights movement. Right? Like we're in another evolution of a civil rights movement for our time, that reminder that this is not new, even if you're just stepping into this conversation or you're stepping into it in a new way, there's no judgment around that. But there's definitely work that has been happening. So instead of reinventing the wheel. What can you do to do your research and your homework to find out who is doing work around the areas that I care about and how can I plug in and maybe I don't actually just plug to like what they're already doing. Maybe I take it, I expand it, maybe I go in a different direction. But really understanding a lot of work has been done and we have an opportunity to do more and push things more in a way that hasn't presented itself yet in our lifetime. Well, in my lifetime. And Bernie’s. 

Carrie: OK, so Bernie, I'm going to read the first question to you and then we're going to go on it.

Bernie: OK, cool.

Carrie: The first question is around the term ally in regards to being anti-racist, I understand using Ally if you do not identify as LGBTQ and you push for equal rights for LGBTQ people. However, I'm unsure about the term ally regarding race and racism since racism was created and perpetuated by white people. Can a white person really be an ally in the fight to end it? And we have a question. I'm going to read this one to Bernie just so we can kind of talk about this all at once. I have a question about the ally term. I'm reading this piece entitled There Is No Such Thing as a White Ally. And we will share that link when we send that email after.

Carrie: But let's go ahead and talk about this idea of can a white person be an ally in the context of racism being created and perpetuated by said white people?

Bernie: Sure. Well, for me, yeah, I mean, so I identify as LGBTQ, I identify as queer. And I can also ask, you know, it came up in queer centered spaces like straight people being allies can also be problematic. Again, I think the thing that we need to focus on is the verb “be” or to “become” or to participate. You are enacting the verb. You are not an ally in the sense of like I get to hold this up as a shield. I get to identify myself as a good person. It isn't really about you individually as a person, it's about enacting anti-racist policy’s, changes, decentralizing whiteness at the central power structure of the United States of the global Western world and and also trying to dismantle it. It's not necessarily easy. It's also difficult interpersonally because everyone wants to be identified as a good person, I would argue. Maybe some people don't.  

Bernie: The thing that's happened with the word ally is it's become a way to say I'm not racist, but by pulling it out and putting it in front of yourself and hiding behind it, you're enacting that phrase. And when someone says to you, I'm not racist, you usually think “Well, how do I deal with this person? Obviously they've done something. They've caused harm. They've said something racist. 

And also, you know, we're talking about something that isn't just individual. Any racism is the addressing of structural systemic white supremacy and policies, actions that are enacted by institutions, political groups, political institutions and individuals who uphold those things. It's not just the person who is carrying the Nazi flag down the street or having a KKK symbol on them, it's not just that. Right? Not all of the things I've done, but I know that I've engaged in action as a young person that is racist. Even today, I'll mess it up. You have to remove yourself if someone's angry with you, you don't beg their forgiveness. You sit in that and try and deal with maybe what did I cause? How did I cause harm to this person? How do I act harm in this community? And not trying to erase the harm you've done by hiding behind something like, you know, I'm an ally, though. And it's hard, I mean, we often resort to being defensive. It's a natural reaction, but it's dis-engaging your ego and trying to understand the harm you've caused, the harm that the system causes and how you benefit from that and how you can desensitize yourself from it.

Carrie: I love that phrase that you've been using decenterize, because at the end of the day, it's not about you and your actions and being a good person. It is about those systems. And when Dr. Kendi in his book, he talks about being an antiracist like there's no neutral, there's no Switzerland either. You are actively opposing racist policies, structures, et cetera, or you aren't. And so if you aren't, then you are a racist. And that's just the black and white of it. Not to, like, use that term in a weird way. But that's the thing, though. Anti-Racism is this active thing. And when you see these things happening, you can no longer look the other way or wonder if you should do something, you have to do something and you have to understand what that looks like. And so one of the things sometimes we talk about in these sessions, like just to give people a picture, like racism is in every single system that we have, like we've seen, you know, brutal examples of how it's in law enforcement. We know that it's riddled within our legal system when we think about the school to prison pipeline for black people and other brown people as well, it doesn't make sense like the proportions of brown people in jail compared to the population. Even things like maternal health is one that I talk about a lot. A black woman is eight times more likely to die during labor than a white woman. Why? It's the same country, it's the same medical system. When we think about access to funds and funding, when we think about banking, when we think about venture capital, like it's in every single system. And that's why it's so important for us to do this inner work and really take a look around the world that we're in. Because when we think about combating racism as an ally actively, it's overwhelming, right? Because it's everywhere, like, where do I even start? But you are situated in a particular sphere of influence. Right? And that is where you start, whether it's at work in your community or at home, like your work could be as simple, and this is not simple, as raising kids who are not racist. Like that could be your anti-racism work. That's huge. It's not simple and it's not a small impact either. Right? That's humongous. But you might be a leader at a company. You're a person of influence in someone's circle. And so this is why you're trying to figure out where is my influence and where does that reach and how can I understand what anti-racism means in those areas that I'm in, because not everyone is going to be called to be on a political stage or make policy change in the government. Maybe we don't even know how to do that. 

And so this idea of I'm a white person not being able to be an ally because that is where the systems come from. It's interesting because I mean, I get what this question is asking. But at the same time, the people who are here now, though they are benefiting from racist systems, we're not the people who initially created the racist system. This is my assumption. A lot of white America is looking around like, whoa, this is happening like what is going on? And maybe, you know, what they say after that kind of puts them in one camp or another. But at the same time, I think that is the word that we're using to call in people who feel like they want to do something. We can call it something else other than an ally, because I totally get the idea of Ally often being passive and a badge and things. There's lots of ways to be a bad ally, but then still feel like, oh, no, I'm a good person. But that is the word that we're using that's resonating with people. And honestly, like, if that's the word that is going to resonate, then that's the word that we're going to use for now, because we're all going through this evolution together, like Ally may evolve into something else that actually embodies something more active, more accountable. But this is where we are right now. It's the same really with anti-racism, like that's a word. Some people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That is way too provocative. Like, what are you talking about? We can't say racism, but that's what we're talking about right now. And ultimately, you know, I named this project the Inclusion First Project, because that's where we want to get to. But right now, we're talking about racism and anti-racism and these are the words that are in our social consciousness. So we're going to leverage that to put people to this cause, to help them think about where they can take it next, if that makes sense.

Bernie: Yeah, no. Yeah, it does make sense. And I think something you brought up before when you were talking about we're in the civil rights movement again. Right? Something I've seen is you are living the civil rights movement again, whatever you're doing now is what you would have done then. Right? So what do you want to do now? Like this is it? Some things have changed, but not a lot. And we need to move that needle. It takes great effort. And it's not something that’s taken lightly.

It is going to be hard and you're looking at a lot of hard things coming down the line, we're living through multiple crises right now, and I understand that the energy, the personal energy may not be there. But if you can do one thing a day, read something, engage with something. When you do read something, don't get angry and put a comment at the bottom of the page, read it, absorb it, think about it. Maybe ask a friend who's engaged in it. Maybe you're doing these small things right now and that's how you're going to move to making bigger things. But we do have to move things quickly. We have to move them now because, you know, it's only going to get harder going forward. It's not going to get easier.

Carrie: We've been given an opportunity to do this work and to do it now for future generations. And, you know, we're all trapped in this pandemic and everyone was on edge. And then we watched the brutal murder of George Floyd and now here we are. And what are we doing? And, you know, it's interesting, my partner's daughter, she's 22. She'll be 22 this month. And she was like, oh, man, I'm just really bummed out right now because like a month ago, Black Lives Matter, was trending on everything. And now when you scroll through like it's not there anymore, like what's happening? Are people still doing to me or do people still care about this? And so how do we make this a movement? Not a moment. And so there's this inner work which may look on the outside like things aren't happening, but things are happening because we have to do this in work before we actually rush to make those actions. And because that's when we end up in a bad place that's performative allyship where I did this just to look like I'm doing something.  

Bernie: I'm not going to read what Catherine Peus wrote in this article, but her essential takeaway is you need to get off your butt and stand against what we've created And change it with those who are already doing the work. Not in front of them, right? Not in place of them, not erasing them. Not lifting ourselves up as much as we do in the media and other places as the saviors of everyone. So, yeah, I don't want to read her words, but I highly recommend reading the article when you get a chance. 

Carrie: So Bernie, I'm going to read the next question. How do we foster true accountability while not jumping to cancel people who have made mistakes? What do you think about that one?

Bernie: The term cancel is problematic because essentially when we see someone's been canceled or cancer culture, really actually what we are talking about is accountability. No one's canceled. People who are being confronted with what they've done aren't being canceled. Many people still have careers. They're still raking in money or they still have their jobs. And I guess one of the questions, though, when you're talking about fostering true accountability, what do we mean by that? What does that look like and how is that defined by the community you are living in? So what do you think?

Carrie: Yeah, I think like what you're saying about cancel culture, people who make mistakes, how are we holding them accountable? What, set of rules are we holding them accountable to. Right? And so, you know, if we think about the Me-Too movement, it became really quickly unacceptable to do any kind of sexual harassment. You're going to lose your job, your team, your company, your money, everything. I also think about it like, you know, it's not cool to be like, that's so gay. We don't say things like that anymore because there's a standard there's social accountability. But what we haven't gotten to the point of defining in the realm of anti-racism, what it looks like? What things are we holding people accountable for? Yes, we're not calling people like the N-word, but that's not being anti-racist. We need a set of rules, a set of social agreements on how you actually combat racism. And this is what we do when we see it. This is what it looks like. And I think that's really the awakening that we're in right now as we start to think about these different systems that are surrounding us and encapsulating us, that have all these racist policies and outcomes. What are those things that we're no longer going to stand for? Like, for example, here's a super easy one.

Carrie: We both used to work in corporate America. When you look at the boardroom or if you look at the C Suite, there are no brown people in so many companies. Like if you are actually enacting anti-racist policy in your company, that would not be acceptable. Obviously there's something happening in the system such that you do not hire and or promote people of color into your C suite. And if you think about a lot of companies, especially large ones with lots of layers, that goes down pretty far. It's not just the C suite. It's not just the VPs or the directors. It's throughout. And so how do we actually decide as a country, as a people socially, that things like that wouldn't be OK anymore. So I think it’s defining those things.

Bernie: I also think that one of the interesting things about this new phrase, cancel culture, which actually canceling comes out of language that was used by activists prior. It isn't new. Additionally, just like with the Me-Too Movement, we're now in this moment, but this moment has happened before and this moment has happened before that moment. You can keep tracing it back and often the complaint, the pushback is because we don't want the change. We don't want to be held accountable. We are comfortable where we are. We want all the white men in the C Suite. We all like each other. And we don't want you here. They may not say that out loud, sometimes, but it's action that has a cycle, and if we're going to stop that cycle, break that cycle, then accountability is something that has to be enacted.

And, you know, there's personal one on one accountability. And what does that look like to you? What rules do you want to hold in that space for yourself? And there's community accountability. There's a larger societal accountability. And oddly, usually who get moved out in positions where there is pushback are people who are marginalized, someone brings up something, they may be moved out quietly the next, you know, review cycle. It becomes incumbent on you, if you are going to practice ally ship to make sure that stuff like that doesn't happen, that you are, again, decentralizing yourself in all the areas where you have influences, where power can be enacted. Including your own home. If you have children, it is incumbent upon everyone to change it. I would just recommend, always questioning why is the person complaining about cancel culture and what are they being held accountable for? Maybe instead of the pushback of thinking about how uncomfortable it makes you actually think about how uncomfortable it makes you feel, why it makes you uncomfortable. Why are you able to see that harm done and how you then can go forward and correct it. We all are humans, we mess up all the time and we want to be better. And if you do want to be better, then it's an introspective, engaging, ongoing process.  

Carrie: Yep, absolutely. I just want to echo what you said, and I think this is one of those places where you can take this tip or this and this framework into your own life. But this idea of being uncomfortable. We don't like to be uncomfortable, but in the reality of anti-racism and becoming an anti-racist and combating racist systems, you have to be OK and expect and welcome the discomfort because it's going to be uncomfortable. And that is not a bad thing. And one of our mutual friends had this really beautiful analogy. She talked about thinking about this work like you have hired a personal trainer and that person is kicking your butt. But, you know, it's good. You’re doing these push ups, your body is burning. But, you know, on the other side of that burn is strength and is all the things that you want. And so you look forward to the burn. You hate it when you're going through it. But you were so glad that you did because the outcome is what you want, a strong body. And that's what we want now, a strong body. If you think you can do this work without being uncomfortable, you can't. So just be OK with that. And then when you feel uncomfortable, just take it and put it somewhere where you can revisit it later, because we're not always in a place where you can do this deep work. But ask yourself, why? What about what happened, made you uncomfortable? How were you triggered? What does that mean about what you believe about the world, about yourself, how you judge, how you see other people?

Get curious around the why. Why was I uncomfortable and how can I move through that discomfort to a place of potential growth, understanding, questions, curiosity. Maybe there's something I need to look into more. Maybe there's a conversation I need to have, but move through the discomfort so that it's not wasted because there's an opportunity for you to build strength and grow in those areas of pain.

OK, cool. So we're going to go to another question. And Bernie, I'm going to do  number four now. I think that this is a really interesting question because it comes off a little lighter, but there's still a lot in it. Shows such as SNL and the Office are notorious for their absurdist comedy routines, including racial comedy, i.e. SNL Black Jeopardy. As I learn more about systemic racism, I wonder if I am complicating progress in any way by watching these types of comedic routines?

So this was a similar question that we had earlier in our series, around does it make me racist to laugh when a black comedian talks about black people in a disparaging way? I mean, it's just so interesting, right? Because obviously the intent of the people creating this, whether black or white, is for people to laugh. The black comedians are not being like, oh, no white person better laugh at this. They want people to laugh and engage in the content that they are creating. Life imitates art. Art imitates life. It's “OK”, or at least it was or has been. And I think it's really important for us to reevaluate. When I thought about this, it's like a hard one to even answer. Like, is it OK to laugh? Like, can I laugh when people are being made fun of it? Does that make me racist? Maybe? Or maybe not. Then how do I, like, internalize that. I saw this joke, do I internalize that as true. Maybe I'm not around a lot of black people in this case. And so that's like the only contact that I have. Maybe I take that and then as I navigate my life now I'm using that as a piece of data, information, or fact to see the world through. That's obviously really problematic. But, I don't know the answer to this question. Bernie, what do you think?

Bernie: What is the term? All your faves are problematic. Right? Everything you like has a problem. While that's super reductive, I've had friends who've worked in comedy who have left comedy because of the racism and sexism that's inherent in even just the improv process. We go to it because we have certain scripts that are running in our head that we've seen that keep getting recycled. And those are used for comedic effect a lot. Does it make one person racist? Does it hold you back from racism? Just by asking this question, you're engaging with the thought? It's the first step in questioning what I'm watching. Asa writer, I am often taken out of everything I watch because I not only see the sometimes I'm struck by the racism that's present, I think anything in 30 Rock. It uses tropes that are offensive all the time. People love that show. That show ran for years. Since this is topical and also tied into SNL, they've removed blackface episodes. It doesn't erase the codification that's already happening in the thing, just because you took out one visual offensive element, but if you are doing this questioning, when you're watching something, now we're just talking about an individual thing. You can decide not to watch it anymore. If you think it's complicating progress in any way or you think that it's not. It's only hindering societal conversation or any serious action that can be done, maybe you stop watching it and you talk to other people about why you stopped watching it and then maybe it doesn't get produced. And sadly, this is a consumerism approach, and that's not necessarily something that makes great change. And now people are reacting to being called out on this. You know, people are accusing people calling out these shows as practicing cancel culture, but  really what we're doing is holding them accountable. Right? We want them to do better. We like their programming. We want to engage with it, not feel shitty about ourselves or the society we're living in. And while that seems just a surface thing to make us feel comfortable by changing the conversations, you are changing what's acceptable, what's engaging, what we like to hold as communal values, what we want to hold and what we what we also share as humor. 

Humor is completely subjective, but often we can all watch the same thing. I think all those things and I think, if you're asking this question, you're already engaging in a practice and then you have to decide whether or not you are going to engage with this and what you're going to do about the continued production about stuff like this. It's hard. There's a Netflix show that's coming out that's like a dance show about someone who's trying to get into school and needs to, you know, make their portfolio look like they have school activities. And she has never danced before. And so she's a white girl and she winds up becoming like a dance champion. Which, you know, there are all these other supporting people who are brown and black and Asian, but we're centering the white person in this show. And it doesn't make sense. Why is this even still happening today? Like, why is this story being told anyway? Sadly the thing is that, you know, Netflix is a company that's built on metrics and they know that we will watch stupid teen comedies. So if you know that teen comedy is not good or does not hold your values, don't click on it. Don't watch it. They will respond. That's what they do during AI supported programming systems. So don't watch it. Watch something else. Watch a show that is centering black people, centering Asian peoples and centering someone else, you know.  

Carrie: I think you bring up a really interesting point around anti-racism and what that can look like. What is anti-racist and consumerism and consumption look like in your life? I mean, when we think about sustainability and trying to create a more healthy ecosystem and environment, we start to think about how we consume things and what that looks like and what we can consume less of in order to support environmental policies and environmental gains. And so what if we looked at this in the same way, when we think about our consumption, where we shop, when we're buying, when we're not buying, what we're clicking and we're not clicking, and we think about that through an anti-racist lens, how does that change what we do? I think that's really interesting. You know, even thinking about people who are are vegan, but they eat vegan, but maybe they have animal products or people that are like legit, they don't have any animal products, like the work that it takes to understand what things in your life have animal products in it is deep and like goes through a lot of things like this. You know, it's a kind of silly comparison, but it's like the same thing. There's a lot of work, like your shoes have it in it, your chair has it, your spoon has it and it's the same with racism. 

So this idea of consumption and looking at it through an anti-racist lens and deciding I'm not consuming anything that is has racism in it. Not only that, I'm going to talk about why. I'm going to educate myself as to what does and I'm going to figure out another way to do this. So an innovative idea.

Bernie: There's other media out there, including on Netflix, and because we're in this society that sadly, tracks consumer culture. It is some action you can do. It's a small action, but it's some action. You can watch 13. Even mentioning it makes me a little sad and uncomfortable because it’s so small, but even doing that, asking for that representation in the media, in books, and on TV, I mean, it's important still because we need to see those stories. There was something recently in the news where there weren't any shows centering Latin people on TV at that time and they were celebrating the signing of one show. And this was just like a month ago, So we're not getting the diversity of narratives. And those narratives are also important, including comedy, including everything else. 

Carrie: OK, so let's move on, we'll do one more question. And this question came in through Instagram, which was really awesome. You can submit your questions to our site or through any of our social media, and we will talk about it. So I'm going to read the full thing because I think it's really good. So I don't usually text strangers, but I feel it's important this time. My family and I are white and I have a question. My dad grew up with a very rough life. He had an abusive mother suffering from alcohol addiction. He left home when he was 16 and struggled with drugs and alcohol all the way up until his 30s. He's not racist, but he doesn't understand that black people suffer more than whites because of his past experiences. He doesn't understand that. So my question is, how can I get my dad to understand that black people suffer more than whites just because of the color of their skin? I may not be wording it right, but let me know what you think. All right, Bernie, what do you think? There's so many things in this, right? 

Bernie: You and your sister, Amy, talked kind of tangentially about this not this specific question, but other matters. In your first video, it was like a lightning video of 15 minutes. So if you have a moment, you can go watch it on the Inclusion 1st YouTube page. It becomes a hard thing to do. Now with your father's issues often, we define ourselves by our individual lives in comparison to everyone else, and it's a harder thing to do to take yourself out of the picture and out of the narrative and see an entire picture and see how that's balanced. And it sounds like he had a very difficult life. But you have to ask yourself when you're addressing them, are you trying to be right in getting them there or are you trying to get them there? Are you trying to help them see or do you want to prove something? And I'm not saying that's what's happening here. The reason why I'm saying that is that's how I often interact with my parents. And so I have to ask myself, am I trying to be right or am I trying to get them in the right space? And then how do I do that? How do I call them in? This idea of where a white person, even who's gone through a lot of suffering, stands in relation to even a well-off black person is completely different. I can think for myself and maybe this is a question you can ask your father, how many times did he have a run in with the law? I did a lot as a young person and I'm still here. And I was not arrested. I went to court and stuff a lot, but I never was put in jail. I was never shot by a police officer. I even had an encounter where during college, we weren't doing anything illegal, but we were in a play and we had a prop gun in my car. I was playing the South African prison guard and we had a prop gun in the car. And it was an air rifle. And the other two people, a young black man and a young white woman, they were just talking to people and he was showing the prop gun outside. And I had gone in to go get something else from my dorm room. And I come outside, we're going to be packing up. And he's talking to friends, he lives in the dorms, like everyone knows who he is. But someone called the cops and so the cops came and they drew their guns on us in the parking lot. I get indignant because I'm a white guy, right? I'm manifesting as a white man at that point. He's trying to calm me down because I'm angry at everyone.  

The police asked, do you have any other weapons? I have a phone in my car, like, I'm just being all sorts of I want to talk to your manager. No one got arrested, no one got a ticket. Nothing happened. We explained the situation, but people came with real guns out and I was ignorant, right, because I had run-ins with the law. And I could be indignant to a law enforcement officer, my attitude changed dramatically since then. 

I'm not actually giving away the horrible things I did as a kid, that got me in trouble with the law. But none of those put me in jail. None of those got me shot. And that was the closest point, probably, where I would have been harmed by a police officer. I think someone saw a black guy with a gun outside, even though there were many people talking to him and it was nothing going on. But because of that, when I ask how I grew up or how I have survived to be this long, it's primarily because I am white. It isn't because I didn't do other things that other black kids did. I did those things, too. And that's when we're talking about those narratives, many of the things that white people do, black people do, we all get in trouble by the law for. But it's disproportionate. And that's a huge narrative where wealth gaps are. That's a huge narrative. And we can tell these stories. I've told these stories. My parents know these stories. They've seen me in court. But the thing about it is. 

That it's easy to identify yourself, your individual self, and saying, I struggled. I think it was Hannah Jones, who was talking on Oprah's show when she gave this really great metaphor. You have these suffering's too, but you're swimming with the stream. The stream still helps you. And black and brown people and other people of color are swimming against the stream. They have the same sufferings you do, but they're going against them. I was carried by the stream, I was able to make it further down than someone else my age group, my time didn't make it. I mean, they just didn't. I guess the thing about this is even when you're talking within family and they know these stories, it's hard to collapse them and have these real conversations with them because you want them to share the same values that you have and you want them to be in the same right space with you. Sometimes you can get them there and sometimes you cannot get them there, and I hope in regards to your father, I mean, one of the things maybe you can do is listen to him. This is a suggestion coming from Carrie's video earlier with her sister, but listen to them, listen to their experiences, listen to them, and over time interject. Giving examples like “Oh well, you know, would you have thought that a black person in that position would have had the same experiences?”. Try and bring small things into a conversation without trying to threaten his complete identity. I don't know if he's in AA or anything else, but just looking at that process. That process can also be helpful to use as a framework to identify your own interactions with supporting white supremacy and racism, I know it sounds weird, but we don't have a lot of time to go into that argument.  

Carrie: I appreciate you sharing that story. It's a very powerful story. And, you know, it's a super common story, people of color have lots of those stories. Thank you for sharing that, I think that it was very powerful for sure. And, you know, I agree with a lot of what you said, especially listening to him and trying to figure out how you can understand his experience? You know, when I think about this, there's this comparative thing that we do, right? Like your suffering is worse than mine or mine is worse than yours, and it's just not relevant. The truth is we don't want anyone to suffer. And yes, dad, you might have gone through these things. And guess what? That wasn't OK. And it's also not OK that these things are happening over here to these people either. It doesn't matter, like more or less. That's not relevant. The thing is, it's not OK to kill people because they're black. It's not OK to deny people, you know, basic rights or access or any of the things because of the color of their skin. And that's what we're talking about. We're not comparing, we're not making this a better or worse thing. We're just thinking about what is it that we want to create and how can we support these people in creating that and how can we remove these systems and these barriers that are keeping those things, these ways of thinking, that are keeping these things from happening? Hopefully that is helpful to the person who sent this in.Bernie, anything else you want to say before we wrap up?

Bernie: Sure. Just to tack on to this, go back and watch that video, the video on YouTube. With Amy Titus. It's 12 minutes. It won't take you a ton of time. But she has some very good suggestions on how to deal with these situations. Thank you for having me here.

Carrie: Bernie, you're amazing. And thank you so much for just giving us your mind. I just really appreciate that. I mean, I want to thank everyone for tuning in tonight. You can find more about the Inclusion 1st Project at https://www.inclusion1stproject.org/. We are doing this every Tuesday. We just just this week launched a new campaign to collect 500 questions, 500 questions in the next 30 days. And why do we want to collect these questions? Because we want to provide more answers, better answers, and more resources to really support our allies in the anti-racism journey. So please share our project and send in more questions, because, the more questions, the better. We're excited to answer them. And we'll have another amazing guest next week. And Bernie, thank you. Thank you so much for being here today. We will see everyone next time.