Session 10: Transcript

Session 10: Transcript

Session Topic: Anti-racism for Allies Q&A Session - Co-host Kyle Moss

Carrie: So thank you, everyone, so much for coming. We are doing our weekly anti-racism for Allies Q&A session. Thank you so much for submitting amazing questions. I think we got another 20 or so questions this week, so we're going to tackle as many as we can while we are with you today. And we will definitely respect the time and get everyone out of here at 5:00 Pacific Standard Time. Whatever that time is for you. I am going to share my screen real quick as we just kind of set the stage and go through the agenda.

So what do you expect tonight's flow? I'm so first we're going to set our collective tone. Just talk a little bit about what we're doing, how we're talking about it, give you some tips and tricks automatically to take back as you're having conversations about anti-racism and race in your own homes, communities, and at work. We're going to do some level setting around definitions just so that we all know and are talking from the same space when we talk about anti-racism and what do those words mean? And then we're going to go right into the submitted questions that we got. Now, the lovely thing about this new format is that you can also submit questions via the Q and A, and you can do that as yourself or you can hit the little dropdown next to your name and do so anonymously. So if you have a question that sparks as we're talking, feel free to throw it in there and we will definitely get some of those questions in as well. And then we also will add them into our master list of questions, because my goal is really to find a way to answer all the questions that are coming in so that we can help people continue to think and learn and grow and have resources that they can take back again to their lives. So that is kind of our rundown for what tonight is going to look like. And I'm going to pass it off to Kyle to start us in creating this positive space.

Kyle: I love this. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here, number one, as a guest I carry a guest. In any case, similar to what Carrie did last week and what we've done together in the past, this is a safe space. It's a positive space. And that means all questions are welcome. I think she already mentioned, but if you're on, then you've got the ability to submit anonymous questions when you check that box. We've already got questions submitted, which is incredible. But again, all questions are welcomed.

The second thing is that no blame, no shame. We are living in a judgment-free zone. It is difficult, I know, as humans. But ultimately, we're really inviting that sentiment into this conversation in this space. The third is that Carrie and I are speaking for Carrie and I. We can think for ourselves, right? We're not representing some large group of people. We're not representing all women. We're not representing all women of color. We're not representing all people of color. We're not representing anything but ourselves and our own experiences at this point. And we definitely, I will say this a million times over, don't know everything. What would it be if we knew everything? Life would be terribly boring. So we really don't know everything and we're speaking for ourselves only. What else do we add to that list?

Carrie: Yes. So, yeah, I just want to echo what Kyle says. This is a lifelong journey and we're all on different points of the journey when it comes to how we embody anti-racism and what that looks like in our lives day today. And so we're here where we are now. And our main goal is to just keep getting better and better and learning more and understanding more and connecting more with people. So we're just, again, a judgment-free zone. There's no right or wrong in where you are. The point is that we're trying to do more, we're trying to be better, we're trying to take steps in that anti-racism direction. Just to point out everyone's role in that because we're all in different points, everyone's role in where you are and your anti-racism journey and the impact that you can have is unique. And that's OK. In fact, that's expected and something that you can really embrace.

As you're learning, the question that you have in your mind is like, what is the impact that I can make? Because we're all positioned in a unique sphere of influence, and we have a unique way that we can influence the people around us, and that's why we're learning these things so that we can understand how to best interact and how to further anti-racism.

Again, that process will look different for everyone. And that's why we're all here to continue on that journey. So as you're thinking about these conversations in your own lives, just remember that you're speaking for yourself. You're not putting judgment on other people. You're not generalizing, we're not stereotyping. And it's OK not to know everything because that's why we're here to learn. Anything else to add, Kyle?

Kyle: I don't think so, I love that list.  I feel like I want to plaster that on my walls and just remind myself in life in general, the way to go about this. Right? Remember to embody these things, because if we did, it would be a whole different ball game and conversation.

Carrie: Yes, absolutely. I totally did not introduce Kyle, who is my co-host. This is Kyle Moss, and she is incredible. She is the founder and CEO of Experts Together, and she helps people to bring more joy into their life. And she and I actually had the brainchild of this original session and have been doing webinars together since the pandemic hit. And it's kind of evolved into this amazing platform. And so, Kyle, do you want to say just a few words?

Kyle: Oh, I love it. I mean, who says the introduction has to go first? Why not? Who says dessert always has to go last? So, yeah, you did a great job. I am Kyle Moss, founder of Experts Together. And we help people and organizations bring clarity and confidence into who they are ultimately hoping to find just a little bit more joy in our days. So you did a great job introducing me and I'm super pumped to be here. Carrie and I are longtime friends and now colleagues, even though we have our own businesses. I'm going to call us colleagues. I'm really, really excited to be back in action with her and with you, I should say, in this manner. So thanks again for having me.

Carrie: Of course, it's my pleasure.

Kyle: Oh, could I say this on record?

Carrie: Please.

Kyle: I am so proud of who you are and how you show up in this world. And I want you to know that I'm just super pumped that you're doing this work and you're continuing even when you're scared or confused or whatever. So thank you for offering the world.

Carrie: Thank you, Kyle. You're amazing. And this is going to be a fun one for us to go through together again. So again, if you have questions throughout, feel free to pop it in the Q&A. If there are things you want to talk about in the chat, that should be open for everyone as well. So we are going to hop right into some definitions just again to get this level set. And so I'm going to just be defining a couple of very similar terms, anti-racist, anti-racism, and anti-racist ideas. And again, just so that we can all start in the same place.

An anti-racist is someone who is supporting an anti-racist policy through their actions or expressing anti-racist ideas. And we'll talk about that in a second. This includes the expression of the ideas that racial groups are equal and do not see developing and supporting policies that reduce racial inequity.

And so anti-racism really is just this idea that we're all created equal. And I mean, just fundamentally like humans are the same. I'm not speaking about what happens once we get in this world and all the inequities start to take their toll on us. But there's nothing different about a white person from a black person than a Hispanic person and all the different types of people. We are all fundamentally the same. And there's no race that is better than another race. And so it's really just as simple as that.

Anti-racism is this active pursuit of making that a reality in our world because as we look at the different systems and structures that we're surrounded by and immersed within, we see that playing out very differently.

Anti-racism is the work of actively opposing racism by advocating for changes in political, economic, and social life. And so this is like the activism championship that is happening. An anti-racist is a person. Anti-Racism is like the work that is happening. And I love this super short definition of the political. So that's all of our government systems, economic like how money moves in our country, how people have access or not to that, and also our social life, which really entails everything else.

Anti-racism is a horizontal that goes through all of the different systems and all the different things that we experience from the time that we wake up to the time we go to bed, everything that we're interacting with. And there's an opportunity to push forward these anti-racist ideas, which, again, this idea, and I'm just spelling this out super clearly. So the idea suggests that racial groups are equal in all their apparent differences and that there is nothing wrong with any racial group. And we have some really interesting questions that just show that this is not always the common thought. In fact, very often not. And so we're just doing that, doing that level, setting around anti-racism, anti-racist and anti-racist ideas.

All right, so this is a quote that I love from the author of Let's Talk About Race. So anti-racism is the commitment to fight racism wherever you find it, including in yourself. And it's the only way forward. And I love this quote because of this, like including in yourself, like we often think about racism as, you know, people doing these overt things. But racism is very covert in our world and it's very ingrained in our system. It's not about calling someone the N-word or doing something really mean actively to someone. That's racism. Yes, that's a very overt form of it, but it's in so many different things. And we'll even talk a little bit about microaggression today and some other ways where racism shows up in our world. But this beautiful just sentiment around us, we're looking for it in the systems where we're existing, but also where we find it in ourselves, because as a human, we've been socialized to be prejudiced and racist against each other, sexist even.

And just because you're part of a race or part of a group, doesn't mean you can't have prejudice even against your own group in some cases. And so, you know, we're fighting this constant battle to look inside ourselves and the self-work that is required to be an anti-racist, in addition to what we're seeing on the outside and how we are getting involved in systems and working to change them. So, yeah, Kyle, anything you want to add around anti-racism? I know we went through this a little bit last time, but I want to set the stage right now.

Kyle: I think the exact same thing jumped out at me as in your previous slide where. Right here where it says including in yourself. I ended up writing that down because that's such a great reminder that there are things in our own minds. I'm a mindset coach, a joyful mindset. So I talk all the time about we have anywhere from 12 to 20 thousand thoughts a day. Right? And so 80 percent of them are negative and 95 percent are repetitive. It's like this insane uphill battle that you're fighting almost every day. And so being like, OK, with the fact that you're sometimes having to fight against your own racist thoughts, I mean, just giving ourselves that permission to go like everyone has that same battle because we've lived in this culture and the society has been pretty confusing and conditioning in certain ways. So that reminder that even those that are at the forefront of fighting against racism, are actively, visibly anti-racist, even those folks are admitting there are things inside ourselves. So I think that's a really powerful thing to include. So thank you for bringing that up, because I think it's just a really, really great reminder for all of us. 

Carrie: Absolutely. Thank you. OK, so we're going to talk a little bit about Allyship.  And I'm going to pass that off to you, Kyle.

Kyle: Allyship, and I'm going to read it so we have that foregrounded where we're coming from, an active, consistent and challenging practice of unlearning, which I love that word, and re-evaluating in which a person of privilege seeks to work in solidarity with a marginalized group. So basically, it's saying work together, work together, right? Allyship is becoming a friend, an active, consistent, persistent, I would even say, friend, especially when it comes to anyone that's marginalized.

So this term is getting thrown around more and more. But I like to think of it, too, as a life long journey. We talked about this in our space setting slide, but when you talk about becoming an ally, it is lifelong. This is not something you put on your list and achieve in a month and check off your list. Allyship is literally saying I from here forward am acknowledging that I've got work to do and I'm going to continually show up as a friend to those that may be marginalized at times and to transfer whatever power I have, whatever platform I have, whatever voice I have, I'm continually going to transfer that in any graceful way that I can to someone who may not have that same opportunity. I wrote down our relationship building. So we've talked about this in the past where you can't just jump in without relationships set in motion already, but you can't just jump in like "I'm here to be an ally". OK, well, back up a second. Where do your current relationships stand and do they need fostering or do they need to start to flourish on their own first so that you can identify the best ways to go about being an ally to someone who might be in a marginalized group? A lot of times that means learning, it means listening and learning.

We talked about this again before, but I love to use the lens of love, listen and learn. And I like that order because if you're coming from a place of wanting to lovingly listen, you will end up learning. And within that order, you're ultimately going to put yourself in a place where it's easy to make allyship decisions. Right? You're going to be in a place where you're saying, oh, I'm starting to learn so much because of these relationships that it's woven into the fabric of who I am now and woven into the fabric of the decisions I make consistently. You almost have to adopt it from the beginning as a lifelong practice, one that you're going to mess up. I put empathy to is a huge thing and it's going "I have to be empathetic", but that looks different every single day. What does it mean to put yourself in someone else's shoes? It means loving, listening, and learning. So allyship is an active and consistent practice of unlearning, maybe some things that are going on, developing relationships and really focusing on doing what you can from whatever place you have, what we like to call privilege or ownership or platform and giving opportunities to other people who may not have access to that.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. That was really good and you definitely touched on some of these different, um, like how to be an ally and training. I love the simplicity of cartoons. You'll often see that as we're talking because it just lays it out so nicely and it takes all the pressure and the academe out of it.

Kyle definitely mentioned, basically all of these four except for the fourth one, which will definitely call out. So this idea of understanding, like where can your power and privilege help other people and really being aware of what that means in the context of you and your experience and your sphere of influence. Kyle talked about listening, love, listen, learn, and then I feel like goes right into this idea of speaking up and not over.

So as you're learning about your privilege, how you can amplify and making space for marginalized people, people of color, to have a platform to have a voice and then amplifying that versus being the one that knows the answers, knows what to do, has to be the one speaking all the time. There's a time and a place for everyone to speak, but then also for us to listen as well. And that actually comes up in some of the questions that we're going to cover today. Then number four, I love this one because mistakes happen, sometimes you mess up, apologize when you do it, make it a learning experience for next time.

We already talked about how we don't know everything. We are going to put our foot in our mouth. We're going to say something offensive, be offended. Like that's just going to happen as we are navigating new territory, new relationships, and even existing relationships in a new and different way. Right? We don't talk about race. We don't talk about anti-racism. And we're going to start doing that. And so we're going to make some mistakes and fall down. And the important thing is that we get back up and that we do that with integrity, you know, apologize again and do better next time. And that's really the only thing that we have to do. You know, we don't want to stay down because there's a lot of work to be done. We're doing this to make the world a better place, to bring equity and justice for all people, no matter what you look like, where you're from, who you are, what you sound like. And that is much more important and way bigger than our little ego bruise that we might get when we make a mistake, or get called out for something. We're going to keep going. I just want to set it as a normal thing. We're going to fall down, so get ready for that and then get ready for how you're going to get back up.

Kyle: Yeah, I love that and I agree. Cartoons always make so you can absorb this information. OK, so are we jumping into questions? Are we ready for all these questions?

Carrie: Yes, we are.

Kyle: OK, so the first question that we got was, can you please give us examples of microaggressions, which I know we use that term a lot. So I think I would say a lot of people are probably nervous to ask what it means. Their like, I'm supposed to know what this means. How do you typically explain it to people?

Carrie: Yeah, and I think microaggression is one of those things where you're like, oh, I can totally explain it. But then when you do, you're like, OK, well, but it's one of those things that's very nebulous because often when a microaggression happens to you, it makes you raise an eyebrow and wonder if that thing actually happened.

Like, did they just say that to me? Did they mean what I think they meant? And so it's this like Double-take that you're constantly doing. But I want to read an official definition and then we're going to kind of break down some examples of microaggression.

OK, so racial microaggression specifically is brief and commonplace daily verbal, behavioral, or environmental indignities, whether intentional or unintentional, that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative slights and insults towards people of color. And then oftentimes the people who are doing this don't even know that they're doing it. They might think that it's a compliment. They often come in the disguise of a compliment, but really, it's like a backhanded compliment. And I think often a lot of microaggressions are. One that is really common for people of color to get is, oh, you're so articulate. This implies that black people aren't articulate and you are articulate. Right? And you're like, I think that that's good, that you think I can talk, but like, why wouldn't I be able to talk?

Or maybe someone who might be first-generation, their parents are from a different country.  Oh, you speak such good English. What do you mean? Like, I was born in this country. Of course, I speak good English. It's one of those you're just like, of course, but it's really these "death by a thousand cuts" type of thing. So like even asking people, oh, where are you from? Because you look different. Right? That's like the thing. What's underneath the question? Where are you from? Because you're not from here. That's what they're saying in their mind. But America is a melting pot like you absolutely are from here. And they shouldn't assume that you're not from here.

Colorblindness, like when I look at you, I don't see color. That's actually a microaggression because what you're doing is, I can't think of a better word for this, like whitewashing them. You're taking away their culture, their color, the things that are beautiful about them. Our differences are beautiful and you don't have to NOT see color. You can see me in all my beauty and glory and then also still appreciate that there's nothing wrong with seeing that.

This idea of criminality, assumption of criminal status. Oh, so like when a black guy walks by and you grab your purse, lock your doors, I don't know any person of color who hasn't been followed in a store before. These are all microaggressions or the opposite, where you go into a store and no one will help you because they don't think you're going to spend any money. So they ignore you. I mean, there are so many of them. If people want to throw out one in in the chat that you've experienced because a microaggression is not just about race. Right. It can be about really any of your intersections. As a woman, you could have microaggressions as an immigrant, as a young person, as an old person, like all kinds of things. I was traveling abroad in Thailand and Jitney Driver, he looked at me and he was like, Oh, where are you from? And I told him I was from California. He was like, oh yeah, I thought that you were there from America or Canada because your skin's too nice to be from anywhere else. I think he might have literally said, I knew you weren't from Africa because your skin was too nice. So no one in Africa has nice skin. Like what? There are so many examples.

But Kyle, do you want to expand on microaggression?

Kyle: I giggle because I think we've all been there like I know I put my foot in my mouth at times and said something like get my words back right. Or times that I know that I've said something and probably moved on and not even recognized what it might have meant to someone.

So for people that don't know my ethnic background. So my mom is half black, half white, my dad is half Middle Eastern, half white, and then my husband is half black and white. We are literally the definition of the American melting pot. Because our family is all shades of colors, it was always like, oh, you're so tan. And almost literally still to this day, I get it, my mom gets it, my daughter now gets it to no degree. And I'm not sensitive to the point where I'm like, oh my gosh. But I constantly get questions about her hair, her skin. And I'm like, oh, man, I didn't have as much empathy for my mom growing up, you know, in all of these conversations as I do now, because I'm watching it happen. And I know people don't mean ill by making these comments, but it's just a really good reminder that it's time to become more aware. Like if you're on this call right now, if you're listening, it's just time to become more aware. Just start from a more loving place, because maybe you won't make so many distinguishing microaggression that you start from that place again. No shame, because we've probably all been on both sides in one way or the other. But it's just a really great reminder for ourselves, like, OK, stop and think before you speak.

Carrie: So there's a lot of microaggressions, that's like a whole other that's like a class, I feel. And then, you know what to do when it happens? Do you ignore it? Do you call the person out at the time? Do you talk with them later about the impact of what they said? That maybe that wasn't their intent and you can have a conversation, but then, a lot of times people don't even realize it. There are certain things that people do when they don't even realize it. Right? So, again, it is that like, how can we interrupt these behaviors and how can we start to notice? Because once we can start to notice, even if we can't catch it that time, that's like the first step in starting to catch it and starting to change and do something different.

Kyle: I will end with my last thought on this is. It is extraordinarily difficult in certain work environments because the culture is so thick, I think of in this I'm over-generalizing because I'm not part of like law enforcement or anything. But I think we think of that culture sometimes is just easier, right? There's like a breeding ground where it's already taken place and it's really I think. So, that's part of your culture, whatever it is that you find yourself or maybe even part of your family culture. I just have so much empathy for you because that is a difficult, heavy place to start from. But I do promise that like Carrie just gave the example, there are ways to lovingly go about that conversation so that you can start the seedlings of disruption in whatever environment you find yourself in. So that's my encouragement, is that if you find yourself in a thick environment of microaggression, that type of behavior, start to plant little seeds of love to disrupt it.

Carrie: Awesome. OK, so we're going to go into the next one. What are some convincing responses to common racial tropes like All Lives Matter or why people get killed by cops, too, in larger numbers, those kinds of things?

And so this is a really good question and I think that it leads to like a common situation that people are finding themselves in where they are on the defensive, trying to help someone else understand that their way of thinking is just not in alignment with the world that we want to create. Right? And so I have a cartoon around all Lives Matter versus Black Lives Matter that we can definitely talk through.

Kyle: I love this one. It helped me gain better footing on how I can approach it or approach the conversation. The other one that I really like Carrie, I don't know if we've talked about this, but there's a story in the Bible where if you know Jesus, there's one hundred sheep, one goes missing and Jesus goes after that one. He leaves the ninety-nine sheep and he goes after that one because it's so important because that is the one that's lost right now. That is the one who needs help. It doesn't mean the ninety-nine weren't important. It means that sometimes one needs more support, help, protection, and love than the others and it doesn't devalue anyone else. It just means that's where the attention needs to be for now. So that story in the Bible really helped me frame this in my mind.

Carrie: And I think anyone who you're talking with, you can pull out kind of different references just to help people to understand. And this one I love just because it's like this idea, like when someone says "save the rainforest", you don't say, "oh, actually, all forest needs to be saved, my friend". No, you're like, OK, I get it. Rainforests are in danger right now. That's why we're going to be saving the rainforest. As you kind of read through this, the guy the all lives matter guy here, I'm down here on this little corner. He's like, I haven't thought that way before. And he's like, but if I change my mind, doesn't that make me a hypocrite? Right? So I said, all lives matter before. Now I want to change my mind, but I want to look stupid in front of my peers. It's like, no, it means you're a growing person. Right? So as we get new information, we do this all the time. It's OK to change your mind and it's OK to become more educated and be able to adapt and then understand the context more. So in the end, they're both like Black Lives Matter. I just love this as a simple way for people to get it.

And the same with the story, the parable that Kyle was sharing as well. And I think when I think about this question, there's also another element of it. And it's this idea that we're trying to convince people who don't agree with us to agree with us. And right now, there are so many people who are on board with Black Lives Matter, with equity for all and all the other, you know, movements that will come from this work that we're doing to bring about change and equity for all people.

And so instead of spending our time talking with the people who want to go back and forth, I just ask for your consideration, is it a better use of time to go and find the people who are already on the same page with you and like push this work forward? Right. Because some people cannot be convinced. And there are all kinds of propaganda, like misinformation, fake news out there. Like you can go on the Internet and try to prove anything and like have a big list of things that you can go back and forth with someone on, regardless of what your side is. Is that a good use of your time? And can you instead go and reach out to those people that are reaching back to you already? And I know that this is easier said than done in some family situations where these people are closer to you and it just keeps coming up.

So, get your facts, get your cartoons, get some resources to go and talk with them if you must. But, you know, maybe they're just not there yet. And that might just have to be like the reality, because you can go and spend your time pushing the movement forward with people who are ready, with the family members that do get it, instead of spending your energy in the wheel spinning with the people who don't. Because, you know, I think it's important for us to speak our truths and to say what we know. But then at a certain point, it's also better for us to go and try to get the work done where we can and how we can. Kyle, what did you have to add to that?

Kyle: It's a great question because I do think a lot of people ask this. So I really like what you said about finding your own example. So, like, here's a parable that really works for me. Here's an infographic that really works. Find your own so that it becomes an easier way to approach it. And not only find your own but maybe if you're dealing with this with people that are close to you, find one that speaks to them, think about what you know about the person you're talking to. And just like, how can I really make this relevant to them, because I think the more you're able to do that and really color it in their minds to their own flavoring, then the more they'll be able to get on board and understand. And so I really like that you pointed that out. Another thing is I think the better questions you can ask people to get to the root of why they're feeling this way or why they want to say things out loud. It's almost always fear-based, I again am a life coach so I'm all about asking questions because ultimately it's uncovering what someone is afraid of and then why they're behaving in such a way.

If you can learn to ask really respectful, thoughtful questions as simple as like, oh, that's an interesting perspective. Like, how long have you felt this way? Because what it also does is it kind of disrupts any anger, any fighting and it slows it down. So anything you can do to just kind of simmer and get them to think again about like, oh, what is it? Because it'll start to take their defenses down if they have to stop and think. So I think that's also just a really great way of going about it. Find what's relevant to them and ask really thoughtful questions. And truly, I cannot harp on this enough. Truly listen. Listen, because that'll give you the clues as to how to ask the next best question. And the more good questions you can ask, the more they're apt to like, come on board because you're giving them that space to really think it out loud. That's the advice I would give in that situation.

Carrie: Yeah, I love that because and I know that this is also another easier said than done thing because we're triggered. Right? And it's very important that we get our point across and that people understand, like the gravity and the importance of this movement. But at the same time, by disarming them and becoming a detective and kind of trying to remove our own emotion so that we can become a detective and start to understand where they're coming from, that gives us the fuel that we need to then go back and maybe do the research that will actually help to bring them on board because now we understand a little bit more about what they are talking about, what their beliefs are built on. And now I can start to chip away at those.

Oh, the other thing that I was going to say. So one of the women with who we were collaborating on our first version of this, used to volunteer at an organization that supported women getting out of sex trafficking. And she told us this story that was basically like it takes 70 contacts to pull a woman out of sex trafficking. 70 contacts from the organization to pull her out into safety. 70. And so we never know where people are on their journey. Is this the second interaction? Is this the fiftieth interaction? Is this the eighty-seventh interaction? So just continuing to chip away. And I thought it was mind-blowing, but also a really beautiful metaphor that we're meeting people where they are. And every time you're there speaking your truth, you're like getting a little bit farther, even if you can't see it. So continuing to speak your truth, continuing to try to understand so you can bring even more relevant information to the more relevant to the argument that you're making. And but also knowing that even though that argument might have seemed like the biggest fail, you might have brought them a little bit closer. To understand your point and understanding what we're trying to create.

Kyle: I was also thinking, you were talking about how to almost disarm people. You were saying like, OK, that's kind of the goal is to lovingly disarm someone. And one of the most practical things I find helpful when I'm in a heated discussion is water. And I know this sounds silly, but always have a drink of water next to you because again, that will stop. You can disrupt anyone's thoughts as a speaker or a public speaker. It's a great thing to have because it helps you to gather your thoughts as you come in an instant calming effect. I used it with my children, but you can either run your hands underwater, listen to water, or drink water, and it will immediately lower your heart rate and help you to clarify what it is that you're even in the discussion about. And like another thing, I notice of my kids again, not that everyone who is in arguments is behaving like a child, but make sure you've eaten, it's those practical things like this, is kind of traumatizing when people have to have these conversations to a lot of extents. Right? So if you're dealing with trauma, not to deal with physical needs, first you have to meet them first. And sometimes that means, like make sure you've got a Snickers, right. They weren't joking with those commercials, sometimes you just need a Snickers.

Make sure that you're also choosing the opportune times to approach these conversations, because like Carrie said if you're doing it at a time where everyone is heated, you might be the sixty-ninth out of seventy touches, but you might go backward and it's like back to sixty-eight because you have spoiled the conversation because you were hungry or you were tired or you just needed a drink of water. So treat these conversations if they are really heated as if you were dealing with trauma. Meet physical needs first. Like, hey, let's have a snack really quick and take a deep breath. Let's have a glass of water, whatever it is, or just pass someone a glass of water, whatever you can do. So again, if your goal is to lovingly disarm people, make sure you're choosing an opportune time and situation to do that, especially when it comes to these kinds of conversations.

Carrie: Absolutely. That's great. OK, cool. What's our next what's our next question?

Kyle: So we have two questions that I can go really well hand in hand together. And it's all about the BLM movement. So Black Lives Matter movement, and how we can integrate routine actions into our everyday lives that will continue to help her grasp the movement in and of itself. So what do you think?

Carrie: Great. So Black Lives Matter movement started in 2013 after the acquittal of George Zimmerman for the murder of Trayvon Martin. They actually recently changed their mission because we've talked about Black Lives Matter on our webinar before. And so I want to read their new mission. And it's just an evolution. It's not super different.

Their mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on black communities by the state and vigilantes. It was something different before, and I wish I had that piece of paper I wrote it down on, but it was more around like how to obviously stop violence against black people. And then also taking a look at how we can re revive and re revise the different systems of racism and oppression that kind of facilitate this continued violence. So this is I mean, white supremacy, the idea of that. It's not just like white supremacists that's like a different thing than white supremacy, where, like whiteness is basically controlling power, but that is actually built into so many systems that we have. So this idea, white supremacy is really about the systems and how we can build the local power to intervene in the violence being created and then build the systems, rebuild them in order to make it so that, again, justice and equality for all.

And so I really like this question because we talked about this being a lifelong journey. This is like an everyday thing. And it's not like, oh, you're going protesting every day. You're giving money every day. It's really about how are you aware of the racism that is both around you and within you and really understanding what racism means in the context of you and your world?

And so I think that right now we're all at this kind of learning stage, right, where we're kind of relearning. And so I just really encourage people to whatever way you learn best just to start to dig in. And we've talked about there not being a right or wrong place to do that because there are so many spaces where there's racial inequity there, racist systems that we live within, whether you're in health care, education, legal law, like tech, like every single system. So where you are, start to open your eyes and start to understand how racism is playing out in those systems. Maybe it's because you work in that specific field, or maybe it's because you have a family and you're noticing these different things as your at church or in the education system or what have you. But I think that it's about starting with this kind of education of ourselves and then this idea of standing up and speaking up when we see something that just seems off. Because as we watch things go by, watch things happen, we're kind of letting that continue as the norm. And so I'm trying to think of a concrete example that I can give.

I mean, so this isn't specific to race, but even something as simple as like people getting interrupted in meetings at work. Like, we know that that's actually a form of, microaggression, that's an inequity. Like, why can't everyone just say their thing without being interrupted, like instead of watching that happen, saying "hey, you know what? Mark was actually talking. Mark wasn't done with this idea. Can we give him some space, Steve or Cindy or whoever, to continue the thought?". Like something just as simple as that. And it's starting to just be aware of what's happening. And that's why I say start with education so that you can understand what racism looks like in the context of your world so that when you see it, it will go off like a light in your head and then maybe the first time or the fifth time you see it. It's that awareness and that desire to want to interject that eventually, you will be able to. Kyle, do you want to jump in? And I don't know. What do you think about that?

Kyle: Sure. Well, I loved what you said in terms of your way, like find your way and the collar. It's not like you have to literally be out protesting every single day. It's not like you have to give money. It's like finding your way. And I love the advice of just inviting more consciousness into your day, right? One day at a time, maybe an hour at a time. In whatever scenario you find yourself, it might be personal, like at home, it might be with family, friends at work, whatever it is in your neighborhood, just an hour at a time invite consciousness into what's happening around you. I think that's just good life advice. But just being aware, because if you're not you'll miss it. You'll continue to miss the opportunities to do a little bit better. You'll go, oh, no, I wasn't really there. And it's like, oh, let me rewind the tapes here, rewind my day. And if I had gone just a little slower, I had taken maybe just one deep breath before I went into a conversation where I was nervous or hesitant. Maybe I would have witnessed it a little bit different and understood where I could have interrupted, but disrupted in a positive way, a thought or a microaggression.

I love the BLM, I don't know if this was in their mission before, but the build local power is what I wrote down and what I really, really, really liked, because that does remind us that while they are one organization that was born at a specific time for a specific issue, the movement itself is much broader, is much bigger. You don't have to agree with everything BLM stands for, to still understand its importance. And again, finding your way, your voice, your position, your platform, and then acting there. I love that they already incorporate building local power, which means, in a good way, putting the ownership on us, saying “I’m local here”. Where the BLM out of or out of New York?

Carrie: That's a really good question. They have chapters all over. They're definitely on the East Coast.  

Kyle: So the relevant point is building local power. So figuring out your way to get involved locally and why not start with your neighbors right in your own home and then in your neighborhood. So finding your way to be a part, an active participant in the building of local power to make change happen. It might just be taking deep breaths for a month before you enter into conversations and just learning the awareness. Right? Carrie said earlier on anti-racism is unlearning. So what is it that you have to unlearn? So that might be your starting point before you can jump into something very physically and obviously locally active. So do what you can from where you are. And that I love about the BLM movement is that they've really, really stood their ground and staked their claim on the fact that this is going to be small groups of awesome people being better together from a local standpoint. So those are the two thoughts that I had about BLM and how to incorporate it into your daily life.

Carrie: Absolutely. And, you know, this is really another resurgence of the civil rights movement, right? This is what's happening in our time. And I love what Kyle said, like, you know, because there are all kinds of different things that you hear BLM did this or they stand for that or they like that. Actually, that doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, what we're standing up for is that killing is wrong and it doesn't matter who it is and that we're not going to stand for it anymore. In fact, there are all of these different systems that are just wrong, and it's our time to make them right. And I love that Black Lives Matter can be like the pebble that starts the avalanche to help us to mitigate and destroy all of the isms. We've talked about this a lot, Kyle and I, it's the same skills to not be racist, to not be sexist, to not be homophobic, to not be xenophobic, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. This is our opportunity to start to build those skills and then naturally broaden that and apply it to all kinds of other things, all kinds of other people, all kinds of other situations. And so don't get caught in the noise of, you know, what people might be saying or how things evolve, like within that particular organization. If you don't agree, like, oh, I don't agree with this and I don't believe in Black Lives Matter anymore. Like, that's not really the point. The point is that we're trying to make a better world for all. And you can decide, black lives do matter. Right. And so do other different kinds of lives. And this is how I'm going to take my stand, stand up, speak out and do my part in bringing forward this movement to create a world where we all want to live, where we're all actually treated in an equitable way. It's bigger than Black Lives Matter. It's about everyone ultimately. And I think all lives matter.

Yes, they do, but not until black lives matter, not until queer lives matter, not until trans lives matter. Right? So let's use this as an opportunity. And then again, what we've been saying this whole time, it is our own unique opportunity to figure out what is our role in this and how we decide to shape that and form it and make our own impact. And that is completely up to you. But again, something that can be actively done. And it starts with that kind of realization of where you are and observing your world and understanding how racism, privilege, all these things are actually showing up for you.

Kyle: Yeah, I mean, it just reminds me we've had conversations about this before, Carrie, and you really hit the nail on the head when you talk about the isms. But it boils down to a condition of the human heart, right? It's your heart. If you have a problem with BLM, then ask yourself, why? Is it a fear-based problem? Because you're afraid to take action? Is it a fear-based problem because you're afraid to acknowledge that there might be racist thoughts in your head? So don't stop there and allow it to disrupt your ability to react. Find your way to react, go inside. If you have to go inside, go internal and figure out what it is that really doesn't sit well with you instead of fighting and saying, I don't agree with this. OK, well why? What is it within you? And if, if you're not fear-based then OK, where is your action?

Carrie: Absolutely. OK, Kyle, there's two more that kind of go together and I'm going to read them both and then we can kind of speak about them and I would love to hear what you think. I'll let you take it first and then I'll pop in after that.

The first question that's like the second one is, is it appropriate to be an intern for a nonprofit that focuses on anti-racism work as a white person? So this person is a white person. Is it OK for me to be involved in an organization that is doing anti-racism work because I'm white? And the second one that's very similar is, do white people speaking up have the same, less, or more impact on opposing racism as does people of color speaking up? Like why or why not? So those I mean, it's all kind of the same around, does my voice matter? How much does it matter if I'm white is my voice less? And even in this particular question, does it take away or harm what's happening and the movement and the conversation that's happening around race and anti-racism? So what do you think about that?

Kyle: Those are great questions. I think there are questions that we're all kind of grappling with. Right? There's no playbook that says this is how this should be done or this is how we need to move forward as a society. There are no real answers there. Again, the life coach in me wants to continually ask questions, why? You know, why would you even think about it that way? What is it that's going on? Are you hirable by those organizations? Is it run by all people of color and you're the only non-person of color and they still want to hire you? OK, we're talking about equity, which means everyone has a voice at the table. So I think you should become...hate to say should...it's like I said, a cuss word. We shouldn’t “should” on people.  

How can I re-frame it? You've got to think about what it is that you're being hired to do as an intern. And are you trying to speak over people or do you have a platform from which you can incorporate other voices now as an intern that maybe are less represented? Maybe you got the opportunity for whatever reason, and now it's yours to make the best of. So I don't think it's wrong. I don't think there's any right or wrong answer about a white person showing up for doing anti-racism work. I think you just have to be really careful about what your heart is saying and what your motives are. So just rechecking them, doing that unlearning first and really going like, am I listening or am I making actions, taking actions that make me feel like I look good. Right? Like there's a difference there. Like if you're doing it because you've listened, you learned you're in a relationship with people of color and you feel like this is really a guided action I'm taking because I've surveyed, great. I think we need as many voices at the table as possible that look and sound different. So do I think it's right or wrong? No, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. But I do think that if you're hirable in a place and people are willing to open their arms to you, awesome. I think every voice needs to be represented. Again, I think we talked about this at the beginning. But going, what privilege do I have that I may or may not have recognized? So, recognize it first. Then ask, what options, what opportunities do I have to transfer that to someone around? Maybe an internship as a white person doing anti-racism work? Maybe that gives you new opportunities to transfer power. 

I don't know. I don’t think there is a right or wrong, I think show up because everyone needs to be at the table. But just make sure you're coming from a reevaluated standpoint where you're really ensuring that you've got deep relationships around you that have informed your best decision.

Carrie: Yeah, I think that's great. And you started to touch on another term that we didn't actually cover which is performative allyship. That's when you're doing something to make yourself look good more than doing it for the reasons of moving the cause forward. And that often looks like you think you know the answers. You're not doing the research, you're not building the relationships. You're just wanting to act so that you can say, hey, look what I did. Right? And so that is not the kind of allyship that will support or help any movement and definitely does more harm than good, because it's not coming from the right place and it's ultimately not accomplishing the goals. But I think that this is a really interesting question, just because there is this idea that as a white person, I don't have a place in this discussion, which is actually the opposite of true.

Now is the time for white America to step up and step into this conversation because we can't do it alone. And then when I say we, I mean like Brown people can't do it alone. And also brown people like, I can't make you not racist. You have to do that work. And so everyone I know when they say “I'm definitely not racist”, that's what goes through your mind, but read the book White Fragility, because it starts to talk about the things that we say in our mind and what racism actually looks like from a white perspective. And that will broaden what racism is doing, like, oh, actually, I do that sometimes where I said that or I thought that, like, it's not like I said about calling someone the N-word or doing something outwardly wrong because of someone's race. It's much more ingrained in our society and our behavior and our social norms and what anyone thinks. But my point that I was trying to make is that this is inner work that we need everyone to do now, and especially if you're white and you haven't gotten your platform, you haven't started this education process, you're not taking part in the conversation like now is the time to do that, because all voices are important and they all need to be at the table. And again, like so I heard this really great metaphor around, like, OK, so as we're building these skills and, you know, I talked about how like a black person can't make you not racist as a white person, you have to make yourself not racist on this at this metaphor of like a trainer. You get a trainer to build these strengths, but you have to do all the working out. You have to be the one who's not eating the bad things. You have to do the burpees. If you don't do the burpees, then you're not going to get any stronger, even if you hate them, even if they hurt. And the thing is, looking forward to that burn, that pain of working out because you know that as you go through this discomfort, that your muscles are getting stronger and when you come out on the other side, you're going to be reaching your goals. I feel like this idea of becoming anti-racist, embodying anti-racist ideas, and going through the discomfort is very, very akin to that. You have to do the work yourself, and if you don't do it, you're not getting stronger. You're just staying like that flabby person over there. I'm sorry, my metaphor died. But, you know, you have a voice.

And especially when you're thinking about people in positions of power, like we're all looking to the person in power to find out what are the right things to say, do what are the norms. If you are an organization, you are a white executive, white person, white manager, leader, even just a person of extreme influence or any influence. People are looking at you, they're watching you. You have an opportunity to use your power and your privilege for good. If you see something, say something. If you're talking about one of the questions we had before was like as a white executive, should I say anything about Black Lives Matter? I want to, but I think maybe other more qualified people should say it. And by more qualified, I think that was code for like a brown person. No, like actually not. You should say it. As we're looking around to see who should take the lead on this. You're looking in the mirror. It's you. You have a role. You have a space. You need to figure out what that is. And as you're doing that, you're going to want to go and ask a brown person to help you, probably. But before you do that, please do your homework first. There's a lot of experience that I've had personally where people are like, hey, help me with this thing that is around race. And you're like, OK, maybe I can help you. I'm in a good space where we can collaborate. OK, what have you done? What do you know? And their like “just fix this for me”. Do your work first and then we can do this in collaboration. But the point is, yes, you have a voice in this space. Yes. You need to educate yourself so that you can come with your homework done. And then it's time to come and collaborate and find out where you can best fit into using your power and privilege to push the cause, the movement, the initiative, whatever it is forward.

Kyle: I love it. I love your rants, I could look into it all the time. Yeah, that's just a great topic.

Carrie: OK, so any last words? We had some more questions to get through. It's hard to get through a lot of questions, but we're going to actually find ways to answer more questions in this format and other formats as well. But Kyle, I'm going to let you take it from here, is there anything that you want to share as we wrap this up and then also let people know where they can find you, and then I'll close us out?

Kyle: Sure. So I just love, again, the concept of this is all inner work. And just take stock of your heart's condition, because when you're healthy and aware, that is when you're going to make the best and the easiest decisions because you're already gone deep. So, love, listen, learn. That is my guidepost in this conversation. Love, listen, learn if you take nothing else for me, please take that forward. And where you can find me, my organization is called www.experts-together.com. So again bringing people together to become experts on themselves, bringing experts, but also becoming experts together. And so I would love, love, love to work with you. I offer free 30 minute Joy Sessions, which is a consultation type call. So you can find me @kylerenee on Instagram and experts-together.com.

Carrie: All right. Perfect. Kyle, thank you so much. You are amazing. We will be having you back for sure. And so in an attempt to answer more questions, we have started doing a Thursday live session. We're going to actually switch. We were on Instagram last week, we're going to switch to Facebook and YouTube this Thursday at noon. I'm going to answer two more questions that we didn't get to today. I'm going to have a special guest as well for that so you can tune in to us on Tuesdays or Thursdays.

And then as this evolves, we're going to be getting more questions. I'm also going to be launching a campaign. So this is the inclusion first project. Next week we are going to launch a campaign that we want to get five hundred questions in thirty days, because the more questions we get, the better answers we can provide, the more resources we can point you to, the more tools we can link people up with. And we just want to answer as many questions as possible. So be on the lookout for that. Thank you so much for coming. Continue to share. You can find us at https://www.inclusion1stproject.org/, we have a Facebook page. That's that same name. You can follow me on LinkedIn and Twitter. I'm posting all of the stuff there for the Inclusion First project and then on Instagram, it's @carrie_inclusion1stproject. You can always catch the previous sessions and keep sending in your questions. Thank you, everyone. See you next time.